Heating Controls – What do we know

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This topic contains 175 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by  mrashton 4 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 136 through 150 (of 176 total)
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  • #15292
     markk says:

    markk
    Participant

    time driven control.

    true automation

    Time driven control along with geofencing is true automation :)

    Running RFXCom with Domoticz on raspberry pi3. LWRF dimmer switches, PIRs and plug sockets. Some Homeeasy switches, harmony hub controlling AV and air con. Geofencing with Pilot app. Tado for heating and cooling.
    #15293
     djtomkins says:

    djtomkins
    Participant

    Well, I’ve installed my (two so far) TRVs and I have to say I rather like it all. I like the app, I like the fact that I can schedule the house to heat the zones I want not those I don’t at every minute of the day.

    My Honeywell 24×7 programmable house stat will deal with the fact that the system should only come on if it is actually cold in the house, and I will leave the house timer on 24×7 and allow the stat to manage that. As I understand it, the pump will only run when the stat tells it to, so there is no fear that the pump will sit there running.

    Also, was browsing the NEST site earlier to see if it would give me anymore that is worth having (imo no), and read this interesting bit, which implies that turning the boiler on or off woudl be a bad thing anyway…..

    Does the Nest Thermostat replace my programmer, thermostat, or frostat?
    A programmer turns your heating system off completely during certain parts of the day or night, which could be a problem if it gets very cold and your home isn’t well insulated. So the Nest Thermostat saves energy like a programmer, keeps you comfortable like a thermostat, and protects your home like a frostat.

    Currently, you control the heat in your home with some combination of programmer, thermostat and frostat:

    Thermostat:
    Allows you to see and change the temperature in your home by turning the heat on and off according to the room temperature.

    Programmer:
    Saves energy by shutting the heat off for hours of the day you’ve scheduled. This is efficient but gives you no way to track or control how cold it gets in your home.

    Frostat:
    This boiler add-on turns up the heat automatically if there’s a chance your pipes will freeze in severe cold weather.
    Programmer off-times save energy, but leave your home unprotected if it gets very cold. Instead, frostats are used to turn on the heat if your pipes are in danger of freezing. But you shouldn’t have to rely on two different devices to manage heat: one that puts your home at risk, one that saves it in an emergency. Your home should never be at risk in the first place.

    How does it work?
    The Nest Thermostat combines all these capabilities and improves on them. Everything is captured in one schedule, which automatically adapts to your life and can easily be adjusted in one place. After you install your Nest Learning Thermostat, you won’t use your programmer or frostat again.

    So with the Nest Thermostat, you can add 9ºC temperatures to your thermostat schedule, rather than scheduling times that the heat will be off with a programmer. A 9º minimum means it’s unlikely that your heating will be on, but the thermostat will turn the heat on if your home gets too cold, which can help protect your pipes.

    For example, say the temperature is set to 9º at night, rather than off. In normal weather, your home probably wouldn’t ever get colder than 12º. So with the heat set to 9º, your heating system won’t turn on all night and you’ll save energy. However, if temperatures drop dangerously low, the system will come back on to protect your home and your plumbing. No frostat required.

    Two floors tooled up for light and power! Lighting circuits: 5 x 1 gang, 5 x 2 gang, 3 x 3 gang, 6 relay circuits, mainly LEDHut 5W LEDs (91!) but also outdoor SON lamps, LED kitchen lights, LED candle bulbs, halogen bulbs and a dimmable CFL, 5 mood controllers, two remote switches, 2 PIRs. Power: one remote socket, 9 plug in modules. Patiently waited for the heating modules for years, and am a little underwhelmed....flirting with evohome....and please don't tell me "there is a better way" and try to sel
    #15294
     Paddchas says:

    Paddchas
    Participant

    Now having re-read the manuals a couple of times I would like to check my logic with you

    Set the Home Thermostat to a desired timed range and heat range, if the Home Thermostats temperature is below the set point it will send a signal to the Bolier Switch and the bolier will provide hot water. If a Radiator has a TRV on it and the set point is not reached then the TRV will open and the radiator will heat up until the TRV reaches the set point of the TRV, if at any stage during this process the Home Thermostat reaches its set point then it will send a signal to the Bolier Switch to switch off the bolier.
    So unless the Boiler is on, the TRV’s will just open and close as per their own individual programs

    This is exactly it, and what I have been saying. Watch the video I posted and you will see. The trv’s solution and the stat/boiler switch solution act entirely independently. One is not linked to the other. You can see them all in the app,but one does not call the other

    #15295
     nevetsecirp says:

    nevetsecirp
    Participant

    Paddchas thanks for the response, I think I get the system now, and it still will be useful for me to save money on heating areas of the house that I dont want heating during the day stroke evening, and I think I can do this with a combination of normal TRV’s in rooms that I don’t use often (currently only 4 radiators have standard TRV’s on them) and where I want a little bit more local control I can add the LWRF TRV’s.

    I guess LWRF have done it this way to hopefully reach the mass market, although for the techies out there they are disappointed that they can’t have full automation.

    Going back to a previous point I think you made Paddchas was you replaced your Thermostat with the boiler control, was it easy to do?

    LWRF light switches in several rooms, WIFI Link, Energy Monitor, Socket x3 and multiple On/Off adapters. PIR controlling lights and doorbell utilising light feature. TRV's for heating. Relays for garden and outside lamps Linked with Amazon Alexa via a dot
    #15296
     Paddchas says:

    Paddchas
    Participant

    It was a swap out for the thermostat. The wiring is basically like wiring a relay. Skiv helped me out but it was pretty basic electrical stuff

    #15298
     Paddchas says:

    Paddchas
    Participant

    Well, I’ve installed my (two so far) TRVs and I have to say I rather like it all. I like the app, I like the fact that I can schedule the house to heat the zones I want not those I don’t at every minute of the day.

    Have you had any problems with pairing or communication with the trv’s ? I’ve found that after a while thing stop working and the wifilink needs rebooting. I was tearing my hair out this morning because all our garage door fobs had stopped working. After deciding it couldn’t be possible for all batteries to run out at the same time, nor for the garage door receiver to have lost power, it occured to me to reboot my wifilink. Instant fix. My garage door receiver uses 868. Something about the link had got in a mess and was stopping anything from communicating!

    #15299
     djtomkins says:

    djtomkins
    Participant

    None as yet. But time will pass and these things may happen and I’ll report back. Main problem is it’s too warm for heating at the moment!

    Two floors tooled up for light and power! Lighting circuits: 5 x 1 gang, 5 x 2 gang, 3 x 3 gang, 6 relay circuits, mainly LEDHut 5W LEDs (91!) but also outdoor SON lamps, LED kitchen lights, LED candle bulbs, halogen bulbs and a dimmable CFL, 5 mood controllers, two remote switches, 2 PIRs. Power: one remote socket, 9 plug in modules. Patiently waited for the heating modules for years, and am a little underwhelmed....flirting with evohome....and please don't tell me "there is a better way" and try to sel
    #15303
     tiptoptrump says:

    tiptoptrump
    Participant

    Someone posed a question about what is defined as zoning earlier. As far as I am aware to truly have independent zoning you need to be able to operate a boiler interlock when there is no longer a demand for heat. LW have got around this requirement by suggesting you purchase a second Home Thermostat and boiler switch and fit it to your “other” zone (again I cant remember the document location but it is one of the new ones)
    Building regulations require you to fit at least two zones to large houses > 150m2 when you are upgrading the central heating (I think you need to be replacing the boiler).

    It appears that LW have decided that the most important function of the two way operation of the valves is for it to send a temperature signal back to the Link rather than a switch on/ Switch off signal. This is where my danfoss Living connect TRV’s differ. I dont get a temperature reading from them (I have to fit a room stat to do that) I get a signal to my controller which then operates the boiler switch. The neat little touch I like is that you can chose which TRV’s you want to operate the boiler. The kids have moved out (again) so their bedrooms are off the priority list, now I only have the Lounge & Master Bedroom calling for heat. The rest just open and close and will heat the room as long as the boiler is operating. I believe Evohome operates in a similar manner and provides true comfort control of your heating. Which is also what the whole thing is about. We have to please the other half. If we can do that and apply a modicum of energy efficiency in the process (Open Window Function) then everyone is a winner.
    PS I hear there was a solar flare recently which might provide those of us uup north with a Nothern Lights Experience. Does anyone know if solar flares can incinerate room stats and Electric Switches because they both seem to have vaporised.

    #15304
     Paddchas says:

    Paddchas
    Participant

    It seems like things have settled towards the evidence in the last few hours, i.e. most of us are now accepting that the LWRF system cannot support zoning in the sense of a call for heat, but it can support zoning in the sense that the trv’s can be used,to ‘limit’ the amount of heat available from the boiler when it is on.

    Personally, I can’t get my head round whether this is a half decent solution still or just a no go. Clearly djtomkins and bellissimo think it is.

    The problem I’m struggling with is the majority of real life scenarios I can think of where I want to control zones are scenarios where I want to boost the temp in particular areas, and sometimes to do that outside of my boilers programmer / stat time periods.

    For example, my boiler programmer/stat drives the house to an average of 20c. But then in my lounge, I decide one evening I want 24c because my parents are visiting and feel the cold. To get this with the LWRF system, I would first need to boost the boiler stat up, and then separately boost the lounge trv up too. The other trv’s would then dial back in other rooms to try to prevent them from getting to 24c inadvertently.

    For these kinds of scenarios, I can’t convince myself it’s worth buying into – I guess it’s still better than heating the whole house to 24c but it involves two separate steps that aren’t connected?

    On the flip side, for remote control of ‘dialling’ rooms down at certain times, e.g. to below the average temp, it seems to work fine. But for those scenarios, for me personally, they are more likely to be ‘constant’ – eg a room not occupied at all regularly such as the guest bedroom. And as such, less beneficial to be able to program / drive reactively.

    Thoughts?

    #15306
     markk says:

    markk
    Participant

    It seems like things have settled towards the evidence in the last few hours, i.e. most of us are now accepting that the LWRF system cannot support zoning in the sense of a call for heat, but it can support zoning in the sense that the trv’s can be used,to ‘limit’ the amount of heat available from the boiler when it is on.

    You mean, just like you can do with a normal TRV costing a little over a fiver? :)

    Running RFXCom with Domoticz on raspberry pi3. LWRF dimmer switches, PIRs and plug sockets. Some Homeeasy switches, harmony hub controlling AV and air con. Geofencing with Pilot app. Tado for heating and cooling.
    #15307
     Paddchas says:

    Paddchas
    Participant

    Markk

    Yeah.. But before being completely disparaging about them, the point is that these trv’s can be remotely programmed and polled for their view of the temp

    #15310
     bellissimo says:

    bellissimo
    Participant

    To start off with at least I just want to be able to have fine control over the temperature in our lounge. We spend most of our time in this room (I work at home during the day), it has two radiators and I like it cool and my partner likes it hot (so to speak). Add to this that both TRVs are in particularly awkward places (one requires a torch and a muscle tweaking stretch to turn it) and I think I will find that being able to remotely programme specific heating schedules for the room and to be able to adjust the temp at any time with the app, along with proof that it ‘really is quite warm already’, will make a big difference. I don’t think you can do that with a £5 stat :)

    #15311
     djtomkins says:

    djtomkins
    Participant

    For example, my boiler programmer/stat drives the house to an average of 20c. But then in my lounge, I decide one evening I want 24c because my parents are visiting and feel the cold. To get this with the LWRF system, I would first need to boost the boiler stat up, and then separately boost the lounge trv up too. The other trv’s would then dial back in other rooms to try to prevent them from getting to 24c inadvertently.

    My stat is wireless so I can put it anywhere I want (cost about £100 – Honeywell). Therefore, if I wanted this scenario, I could fully TRV up (save for the bathroom towel rail), put the stat in a cold hallway (my hallways are always cold) then just set the lounge to 24 and the rest to 20.

    This way, I’m essentially using the stat as more in the style of a frost stat – it governs that the heating only ever comes on if it is cool in the hall.

    In fact, I could completely repurpose the stat, and use it as an outside temp gauge – maybe set the heatong only to come on if it is sub 14 degrees outside…..

    Would that work?

    Two floors tooled up for light and power! Lighting circuits: 5 x 1 gang, 5 x 2 gang, 3 x 3 gang, 6 relay circuits, mainly LEDHut 5W LEDs (91!) but also outdoor SON lamps, LED kitchen lights, LED candle bulbs, halogen bulbs and a dimmable CFL, 5 mood controllers, two remote switches, 2 PIRs. Power: one remote socket, 9 plug in modules. Patiently waited for the heating modules for years, and am a little underwhelmed....flirting with evohome....and please don't tell me "there is a better way" and try to sel
    #15312
     tiptoptrump says:

    tiptoptrump
    Participant

    Thoughts?

    There is no reason to have your downstairs rooms warm overnight, so you set the programmer to switch off the heating.
    However this also shuts off the heating in the bedroom (a good thing too I hear you cry)
    If you live busy lives and morning time means Bedroom – Bathroom – Kitchen then those are the rooms you want to heat and make comfortable. Leave all the others on night setback. (Remember to close the doors or all your efforts may be in vain)
    This is where programmable TRV’s come into their own.
    The Internet control comes in if you are in Tesco and you find out the parents are coming to visit in an hour,
    You end the call (With a scowl on your face if it is the in-laws) and tell the two areas that they will be “inspecting” to warm up.
    Obviously you have to tell the place where your thermostat is located (Coldest Room?) to come on too
    Its all about comfort & convenience.
    If you dont like either set of parents and would like to actively discourage them from visiting then this system may not be for you (Unless you use it to turn down the heating!)

    #15314
     Paddchas says:

    Paddchas
    Participant

    My stat is wireless so I can put it anywhere I want (cost about £100 – Honeywell). Therefore, if I wanted this scenario, I could fully TRV up (save for the bathroom towel rail), put the stat in a cold hallway (my hallways are always cold) then just set the lounge to 24 and the rest to 20.

    Is that basically saying you put the main stat in the coldest area, and then set it to the highest temp I might ever need, and the let it constantly keep the boiler on trying to get that coldest area to the highest temp I might ever need?

    If so, doesn’t sound efficient to me. In my house, the hallway is also the coldest, but the reason for this is because it’s the biggest open area touching all the other areas – so the more you try to pump heat into it to warm it up, the more the heat dissipates and heats up everywhere else anyway.

    In that scenario, I can’t imagine the other rooms staying at 20, nor my heating bills being lower.

    Maybe I’m wrong?

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ABOUT Chris

Chris works as a techie for a large IT service provider. He is a geek at heart and loves nothing more than trying to automate his home. The problem is, his wife simply doesn't get it and can't understand why they can't have 'normal' lights like everyone else! Chris is dedicated therefore to implementing automation in a family friendly way.

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